Redefining the Playbook with Duke AD Nina King

Welcome back to Babes 'n' Sports, with your hosts, longtime sports babes and mamas Jamie Hersch and Tory Zawacki Roy.

In this episode, hosts Tory and Jamie sit down with a true powerhouse in college athletics: Nina King, Duke University’s Vice President and Director of Athletics. The conversation kicks off with a behind-the-scenes look at Duke’s groundbreaking media deal with Amazon Prime, set to debut during Thanksgiving week in Las Vegas when the men's basketball team takes on UConn. 

Nina opens up about the unique challenges and profound rewards of being a mom to her two teenage sons. Reframing her position as a historic female leader into an opportunity rather than a pressure cooker, Nina highlights the power of empathy, the value of meeting one-on-one with her student-athletes, and why she always keeps a "mom hug" on standby.

Best of all, Nina leaves empowering advice for sports mamas: abandon the myth of perfection, embrace the messy reality of parenting, and always reserve the right to get smarter as you go.

Just another week with your mom friends… but make it sports.

Follow the conversation on instagram @babesnsportspodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:09

Welcome to the Babes in Sports Podcast. My name is Jamie Hirsch.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

I'm Tori Zebroy. We're two friends navigating, being mothers, wives, and successful women in the demanding, male-dominated world of sports. And we're back. And we have a lot to catch up on, fam. We have been really, really busy. That's why we haven't been able to record in a while. But you know what? It makes it so much more fun when we do get to come back and do it because we're we're refreshed. We have some exciting guests, and more importantly, we have some exciting news, Jamie. What's up?

SPEAKER_02 0:45

Hey baby, hey baby, hey. Well, the first bit of news is that Tori and I got to reunite in the best way. We went to no doubt at Sphere. And I've never been, I was so excited to experience the magic of Sphere and highly recommend 10 out of 10 run to a show at Sphere because Tori, I had the best time with you.

SPEAKER_00 1:08

I had the best time. Thanks for having me. And thanks for the idea, and thanks for getting tickets and kind of like forcing my hand to make sure I got my ass out there because we had talked about it for so long and to like figure it out with our schedules. Shout out to our husbands for taking care of the kids that week. Um, but it was honestly like nothing I'd ever experienced. It's not just a show, like it's an experience. It's the music, obviously. But you and I talked about this a lot while we were there. Like, it is so in sync. Everything that is being displayed on their monitors, the way they vibrate the seats and light up the seats, it is all like thought out detail by detail. And the drinks were also quite delicious. That's fairly.

SPEAKER_02 1:46

Shout out to your margaritas. Um, also, shout out to you for encouraging me to go all in with you and dress accordingly. Theme outfit, please run to our Instagrams to find our fire outfits because I had so much fun. And honestly, everyone else that I know who saw that we did that, they're like, That's so cool. If you're gonna go to a show like that, you might as well go all out.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

So we would have stood out if we didn't, honestly, because everyone did. Everyone, and you got the most compliments of anyone because your outfit was so perfect.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

Yeah, we're just heads left and right. What was there? There was an older guy that like stopped you and said something really weird and then was like, Oh, just kidding, I'm married, huh? All right.

SPEAKER_00 2:27

So, Vegas, guys, but just Vegas. Proceed with caution if you're gonna go Gwen Stefani ab inspired. Just know that you know you're going to get some attention.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

But speaking of well worth it. Speaking of Vegas, PWHL Las Vegas, baby. No, exclusive gear, exclusive merch. I am so happy because if anyone did not hear the news, the PWHL Professional Women's Hockey League, of which I am a part since day one, um, announced that they are expanding to Las Vegas. And Tori, this is an absolute dream come true. When we decided to move to Las Vegas two years ago, I just hoped that I could still work for the PWHL and fly wherever. And that's what I've been doing. But now to not have to do my job is such a game changer as any working mom and dad out there will know. So I'm so happy.

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Congratulations to the league for expanding. Congratulations to you. Like, this is like I was almost as excited as you, I feel like, because I just know how much it means to you, knowing the commitment that you and Matt and the kids at this point have, you know, to your jobs and to making it work. Um, it's just like one of those moments where you're just like, yes, you know, things like the the puzzle pieces all fit now, right? Like you moved out there, you took this gamble, things started to fall in place, and now it's like, whoa, no, this really was the right thing, right? So that's that's the best feeling. And it's just like how cool for the kids to come see you at work there now. Like, I don't know. I just my mind is exploding thinking about all the opportunities.

SPEAKER_02 4:02

So um I know congrats all around. Thank you, thank you. Yeah, it's gonna be really, really great, and I think it'll be super successful because who doesn't want to come to Vegas to watch their team play? So now there are gonna be um, you know, a dozen teams in the league, and a lot of them, a lot of that fan base will go to Vegas for a game. And we also at the announcement, which I got to MC, which was also so meaningful, um, we had like 300 youth hockey player girls there. So that visual sign that like hockey is a big deal in Las Vegas. Vegas is a hockey city, and there are so many girls that now like there was this 12-year-old that got up on stage and shared her story and said something like, I just want I hope someday I can play for my hometown team here in Las Vegas. And I was like tearing up because what an amazing thing for these little girls to have a team now, to grow up watching. And yes, they have the golden nights, and we love our golden nights. Shout out Western Conference final, but it's a women's hockey sports town too now, and it's so visual, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

It's visual for young girls to see, right? That's just the uh that's a huge difference. So everyone can go to sphere and watch the nights or what's the what's the mascot again now? Gonna be in Vegas?

SPEAKER_02 5:17

We don't know, we don't know yet. The team name, everything has to happen between now and November, and so they're gonna have to hire everyone. They'll they have the colors, but they don't have a name or a logo yet. So um that's coming, but stay tuned.

SPEAKER_00 5:30

So go visit Jamie, go visit the sphere, and go watch women play some kick-ass hockey. It's great things coming in Vegas. So that's our Vegas themed portion of the show. Um and we're pretty excited to keep that going with things that we love and are passionate about. Um, so my turn, because I get to introduce our next guest, um, as a former Duke athlete. I am certainly biased. I am also wearing a really old Duke tennis t-shirt. But when it comes to college athletics, not many places stick with you the way Duke does. Um, and looking at the industry right now, the traditional playbook for college sports game, like it's being tossed out. It's just nothing is the same. And our guest today isn't just reacting to that shift, she's setting the pace for what comes next. Nina King took over as Duke's vice president and director of athletics during a massive pivot point for the university. From navigating the post-Coach K era to a groundbreaking media deal with Amazon Prime, she is proving you can honor traditions while still pursuing the future. One being a badass mom to her two sons, Connor and Austin, at the same time. Nina, thank you so much for joining us today. Great to be with you. Thanks for the invitation. I have to start by congratulating you first on the deal with Prime. For all the Dukies out there, that partnership officially kicks off Thanksgiving week this year in Las Vegas with Duke Men's basketball playing Yukon. And I am very excited to get some revenge in that game. Um, Nina, before we talk mom talk, um, what excites you the most about this partnership?

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Yeah, you know, first listen, it thanks for the congrats, but it really was a truly a team effort on our end. Um, you know, our head men's basketball coach, John Shire, is so visionary, and it's been so much fun to work with him over the past four seasons. And we've got an incredible um general manager, Rachel Baker, and our um our sport administrator for men's basketball, Todd Mezabov. So, really kind of the four of us um hit the pavement and and met with Amazon a few times, and and um the impetus was like we want to do something big and bold. And um, this is Duke men's basketball. We are elite, sorry, Carolina fans, um, but we are elite. We want to continue to be um innovative and cutting edge and and listen in a time where we really have to keep differentiating ourselves because college athletics, the landscape is just so chaotic. Um, we thought, what can we do to stand out? So um it was great, and and it's helpful. We've got some Duke Duke connections over at Amazon and and some Duke folks, and so um so much fun to meet with them and really kind of develop this um groundbreak breaking uh initiative. And I think it's really just kind of the start of what we can do with them.

SPEAKER_00 8:06

It's an incredible start, and we are all about it here. So really looking forward to that. And Jamie's out in Vegas too, actually. So maybe she can catch it. Oh, nice. Awesome. Um talking about men's basketball. You've also mentioned, Nina, that your family is your team, you know, in our industry, the sports industry, it's 24-7 nights and weekends. How do you redefine what being present looks like?

SPEAKER_01 8:26

Oh, every day. Um, it's am I gonna be present at the seventh grade lacrosse game or Duke men's lacrosse in the quarterfinals of the NCAA tournament? Uh so it just depends, I think, on the day, on the hour, um, what present looks like. Um, you know, for me, it's really important though that people know who I am as a um as a person, not just, you know, an administrator sitting behind a desk running this crazy business, um, but that I am a mom, I'm a wife, I do things kind of outside of the office. So for me, I bring my kids around a lot. Um, they love um, you know, kind of the the big games, but also um, you know, we go to field hockey and we go to lacrosse and we've been to tennis and just kind of all everything. They love um just being in this environment and and watching our student athletes compete. Um, they always ask me, especially after football and men's basketball, mom, can we go in the locker room with you afterwards? And so um, how awesome! Like they get to hear, you know, coaches' speeches to their teams and they get to watch high-performing student athletes. And so, what an incredible environment to be able to raise my kids in. Um, but then also they can see that's why mom isn't home all the time because I'm on the road supporting our teams or I'm at meetings. They understand a little bit better because they're around it, um, the demands of my job. Um, and then also, you know, then our folks here understand, you know, maybe I can't make it to um a basketball game because I'm at my kids' uh school play or something like that. So just for folks to really kind of understand everything that makes up who I am is important to me. And then vice versa, I want to know, I want to get to know, especially our student athletes, who they are as people. Um, so what I do every year, I meet with our freshman student athletes one-on-one. We have about 150 of them. So it takes me all year. I mean, I just had a meeting yesterday. Now we had graduation last weekend, and I still had a freshman meeting yesterday. But for me, that's about listen, I know your accolades, I know why you're here, all American this, you know, uh how great you are at your sport. But tell me, what are you watching on TV? And tell me about your family. What do your parents do? Um, I always ask them, what's your most memorable experience at Duke so far? And so it's really fun to hear um all of those ideas. I've watched a lot of bad TV though on their recommendations. So I won't get into which ones are really bad, but oh my gosh, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_02 10:43

No, I think that is so great, and a lot of that resonates with us as moms, too. Uh, you know, you mentioned bringing your kids along with you to your job, and that's something I think Tori and I are dreaming about. We're not quite there yet because our oldest sons are they just turned seven, and then um we have daughters. Soon, soon. And then we have four-year-old daughters. And so like I do um that is a dream of mine, right? Is to I travel a lot for work too, calling different sporting events. Um, and and I've thought, you know, I think we're getting close to the point where I could take at least my oldest on a trip for a weekend and, you know, yes, I'll have to focus and do my job for a couple hours, but he can be on his iPad or something for two hours, you know, heaven forbid. Um but I I think that's really valuable because then they grow up understanding, like, oh, mom's not just absent because she doesn't love me or care about me, but she is absent, she's doing really meaningful work. Um, so I think that's that's really cool that you're that you're really experiencing that. Yeah. Um, I guess my question for you is is more just about schedule because I can only imagine what it's like to try to balance everything. So, what is a typical day during the school year look like for you? And do you get time off for like summer vacation or or not really?

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Yeah, you know, you kind of try to squeeze it in. And and that also is um, you know, to be respectful of my kids' time and their breaks. So, of course, we take a summer vacation because that's when we're all home together. Um, and so we definitely try to squeeze it in. You know, my kids don't really get spring break. All of their classmates are going to all of these exotic locations, and we're typically in Charlotte for the men's basketball ACC tournament, which is amazing and so cool. But, you know, they don't get the whatever, fill in the blank beach vacation. So um, we try to be really intentional about our summers. Um, we let our kids, both of them, when they turn 13, you get to pick where we go for family vacation, but you have to help plan it. And my boys are very different. And so um, my my first one when he turned 13, it was Italy, and it was great. He, you know, we just kind of made him do a little bit of research on Italy. Um, last summer, my uh my youngest, we went to uh Universal Studios. So very in terms of helping planet, I made him read a little bit about Universal Studios, the movie business, that kind of thing, just to make it a little educational. Um so summer, yes, we find uh we find the time. During the school year, a typical day, there is no typical day. And I will say, you know, I mentioned we just had graduation, um, but we still have I think it's seven teams competing. So um it doesn't really feel like the school year is over for athletics at all. Um and I was actually trying to map out my travel for next weekend um to go watch either golf or possibly softball or men's lacrosse. And um I just want to be present for our teams, especially in the postseason when they're chasing titles and really to be out there to support them. Um so it makes it makes some uh weeks a little hairy, a little busy, but really no typical day. I mean, this week we had ACC meetings uh in Florida, so I traveled for that. Um I'm on several boards. I travel for USA basketball, women leaders in sports, um, the the National Association of Collegiate Athletic Directors. I'm on those boards, so it has travel um it any given uh week, um plus Duke and Big Duke, right? Um so as a vice president, I'm on the president's cabinet, which is an amazing role to hold, to be able to, you know, sit at the table at the highest level for our university and really hear and contribute to how decisions are made for not just athletics, but for the university. So um that often includes events, campaign events for Big Duke and and various things.

SPEAKER_02 14:18

So honestly, all day yesterday I thought it was Friday and it was Thursday. Um and I'm on the road right now and I'm taking a red-eye flight. I don't even know what time zone I'm in half the time.

SPEAKER_01 14:31

Like I guess.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

I do.

SPEAKER_01 14:33

Do you have that wake up in the middle of the night and you're like, which hotel am I? What city? What time do I need to be up? Is my alarm gonna go off? All of those freak outside. The weirdest thing is exactly that. Waking up.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

Yeah, waking up and figuring out where you are is something that it it's I guess I got used to it, but it is jarring where you're like, what hotel am I on? What is this hotel? Like, I've this is actually really funny, but I I've kind of tried to like make everything as predictable as possible in terms of my bedtime routine so that no matter what hotel room I'm in, what side the bed is facing, like I always sleep on the same side. Yeah. I don't know. It's it's weird. Yeah. That seems to help calm my mind out every routine is helpful.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 15:17

Um, you are obviously a pretty big deal in terms of being a pioneer and certainly opening a lot of doors for women and especially black women. So I can imagine that comes with a lot of responsibility, right? Like, how do you handle the added pressure of all of that in a job that already comes with a lot of pressure, no matter who sits in that chair?

SPEAKER_01 15:37

Yeah, you know, that part I think is opportunity, so much more than responsibility. Um, I get to sit in this chair, I get to expand what leadership looks like in spaces where it hasn't traditionally looked like me. Um, and so how awesome is that? Um, you know, I often say that I get to um I get to pave the way, not for people to come behind me because I'm hopeful to have still a lengthy career, um, but for people to come with me, people that look like me or people that might not have had opportunities traditionally to come with me and and do this. Um, I really didn't want to be an athletic director. I was so nervous for some of the things that are true pressure uh in these jobs and and sometimes the high profile nature of the job. And I just I didn't know if that's what I wanted. I knew I knew how to do the job. I just wasn't sure I wanted what came along with it. Um, but when I really sat back and thought about, you know, there just aren't enough people who look like me that do these jobs, I thought if I have this opportunity, then I should go for it and and really help others um come to the same realization, whether they want to do the job or not. Um, really, you know, for folks to to really um see that they too uh can can do this. So um what an incredible opportunity. And I'm in an incredible environment. Um our president's cabinet is mostly women. We have so many female deans on this campus. Um, I mean, it's it's just we feel so um supported here at Duke and so really thankful that it that I get to do, um, I get to do the hard and and pave the way and make change um at a place like Duke.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

That's such a good way to put it, you know, and and two things. First, I've always felt that way at Duke even 20 years ago. Like it still felt like there were always strong female leaders that I could go to, like from the administration side and the athletic side, which was like a blessing and ahead of its time, which continues to be. And it's it's so it's so refreshing to hear you speak of opportunity instead of pressure, right? Because I think we face that a lot in our jobs as being not not only not a lot of female, but just not a lot of moms are are doing sports journalism the way we are. And so we want to set the stage, we want to give advice. We won't that's why we're doing this podcast because you you do feel so isolated when yeah, you don't have people around you that look like you or know what you're going through just to get your job done, just to get out of bed maybe that day. So um yeah, I'm glad that we can all do that together. Um Jamie and I also talk a lot about on this pod about how being a mom translates to better empathy as a journalist, right? So what specific mom skills do you think help you directly manage your department of diverse personalities and high profile coaches?

SPEAKER_01 18:12

Yeah, I mean, I think it's that it's empathy. And I think just as women, we tend to have more empathy than our male counterparts. And so um, I think that's really important when when dealing with the 300 plus employees that we have in Duke Athletics, but then there's also the 700 student athletes and right, so such a such an array of of people from 18-year-old students on. And so really um, you know, being human and making situations personal, trying to understand um all perspectives um when making decisions, when having conversations, when engaging with all the various constituents, just kind of trying to, you know, have the diverse perspective of, okay, I was 18 once, um, I've gotten in trouble before, or even just yesterday I had a student athlete come and meet with me in my office and was dressed kind of. I don't, I don't need you to dress up. I mean, honestly, I'm in a sweatshirt and jeans right now. Um, but but the outfit was really kind of uh, and I thought, okay, how am I gonna do this without sounding condescending, turning it in teaching moment, because I really don't care, but I just don't want you to walk into an interview or an employer or a conversation where you really should be dressed a little bit nicer than a cotton tank top and ripped jeans. Um, and so, you know, I mean, being able to have those conversations. Um, I often also tell I meet with recruits a lot and and our student athletes, obviously, and tell them, you know, come here and I've got a mom hug for you. Um, because I know you're far away from home or away from home and and um, you know, you just might need a mom hug and I've got you. Um so I think those are helpful things um when when doing this job, but also, you know, not being too soft because then when you get in the negotiating room or when you get in the tough decision room, you you don't want to look like a pushover either. So really kind of trying to internally but outwardly um show um that I've got balance, right? Like I can be tough too, and I can make decisions and I can negotiate with you if I need to, those kinds of things.

SPEAKER_02 20:08

Yeah, no, that's really valuable and and really great. And I think you know, that's something that I want to teach even my kids too, right? Like I don't want to put so much importance on what you look like, what you wear, et cetera. But it is your outward expression of yourself to the world and how do you want to present yourself? Um, so I think it is it's valuable for sure. And maybe, yeah, maybe those student athletes that you're talking to, maybe they never had someone tell them that. So that's I think really valuable that you can can bring that.

SPEAKER_01 20:33

Um, Jamie, I just wanted to say for things to teach your kids, but don't teach your kids that you'll negotiate with them because that's a non-negotiable situation. Mom's always right. I love that.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Thank you. Very important. Noted, done. Um, yeah. So as a mom of are they both teenagers, two teenage boys? Yes. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_01 20:53

Just keep me on your prayer list, please.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Well, that's why I wanted to ask you. I mean, what are we in for? Like, what is the greatest challenge, but also the greatest joy of being a boy?

SPEAKER_01 21:05

It's all a joy, all a joy, all a joy. Uh listen, and I think I I don't know. People say, and you know, I was a teenage girl, obviously, but I I don't have teenage girls. And so boys are a little less drama, but I do think that they get sucked into the drama a little bit. Um, my biggest thing, and I'm lucky because my kids think I have a cool job and they want to be around me still, knock on wood. Um, you know, but it's it's kind of like the grunting at me. And when I ask you a question, getting one-word answers, or uh, can I get a little more? And so me as a mom trying to figure out instead of saying, How was your day, like how am I gonna get something else out of you rather than fine? Uh so trying to have conversations. So I I think that's the biggest challenge uh and to know when to kind of leave them alone, but I want them to know that I'm always there for them, whether they want to talk to me or not. They can come and talk to me, that kind of thing. So I don't know. I, you know, listen, parenting is a lot of figure it out. You go moments. And we've survived to this point. And I hope to continue to over the next whatever we've got left with these boys at home. But they are an absolute joy. But it's just chaos at every moment. They smell, they eat a lot, they're messy. But whatever. It's our messy. And so we we um we deal with it. Love that.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

We'll take it.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:23

Yes. Good luck. Thanks. We're all pregnant for each other. Um all right, Nina. Before we let you go, uh Jim, you want to do rapid fire and then we'll uh we'll we'll say goodbye.

SPEAKER_02 22:33

Sure. Let's go. Uh yeah. So rapid fire, you know, as short as long as you want, but typically we go fast. So um I I'm actually I've never been to Duke. So I need to go. I just went to North Carolina for the first time. Uh I work in hockey and I traveled with the Golden Knights to Kerry, right? Is that where the the Canes play? Yep. So that's as close as I've been, but it was pouring rain the whole time we were there, and so I didn't even get a chance to go out and score. So I gotta do that. But that's why I'm gonna be taking notes for some of these dukey things that I need to learn. Okay, what's your go-to food spot in Durham?

SPEAKER_01 23:07

We are such a foodie town. It's become it's really cool since I've been here since 2008, and it's amazing how far it's come. But I don't really have a go-to. I just like going to local Durham places that invest in our community. And I will say, I mean, today I'm headed out to our softball game, and um Grub is right by uh East Campus, and so that's my go-to for today. Uh, but I don't really have a go-to. We like to explore it all.

SPEAKER_00 23:32

Well, before we go to the next one, can I get your foster's order then?

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Oh, foster's. You know, I haven't been there in a long time. But we we would usually go for like Sunday brunch, and the coffee cake is really good. Um, all their salads, all of this.

SPEAKER_02 23:43

That's right. Next thing. Okay. Self-care routine that you never miss. Movement.

SPEAKER_01 23:49

Um, and so I definitely try to. Um, I'm a big Peloton fan. And so definitely try to either do the bike or the treadmill. But if neither, then you know what? Honestly, I'll go walk on what I call my indoor track, the concourse in Cameron. Um, just walk in circles and Cameron makes some phone calls. That's my like if I can't get to a big workout for the day, I go walk on my indoor track. So who's your instructor? Um, oh gosh, all of them. They're all so much fun.

SPEAKER_02 24:16

I'm an I'm a Lovewell girly.

SPEAKER_01 24:18

Um, and uh and Jess King, those are mine. Love it. We did um we did a Duke ride um uh back in December before um a basketball game we played in New York City. And so a bunch of Duke folks we rented out um the studio. So everyone in there was Duke, and Cody did the ride, and his assistant went to Duke. Um and so he was in Duke Blue, and so it was so much fun. I mean, the energy in studio is absolutely amazing.

SPEAKER_02 24:41

Yeah, that's so cool. I know I would love to do that someday. Um, motivate motivational mantra that you share with your kids and your staff.

SPEAKER_01 24:49

Okay, I don't know if this is motivational, but this is what I say a lot to both. I reserve the right to get smarter. Um, and especially to our staff, because they're all coming at me, make a decision on this, that, and the other. Okay, I'm gonna make this decision in this moment uh with the information that you're giving me that I have, but I reserve the right to get smarter if I need to pivot at some point um and make a different decision. And kind of the same thing with the kids. Like again, it goes back to mom's always right. Um, but I reserve the right to get smarter. I might have to change my mind uh based on based on the outcomes. Yeah, there's new information. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 25:23

That's cool. Uh, favorite sports team to watch, or if you're just favorite sport to watch outside of Duke Athletics?

SPEAKER_01 25:29

It I have no favorite children. All the sports are my favorite. We have 27 sports at Duke, but outside of Duke Athletics, then it has to be my kids' teams, right? Durham Academy, Cavaliers.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Durham Academy, nice, love that.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Yeah. Are you a pro sports fan at all? Really. I mean, I grew up in Tampa, so um watched the Bucks. Um, my middle school and high school uh classmate is um the manager for the Rays. Um, I remember when the Tampa Bay Lightning came to Tampa. So Tampa sports, um, but my husband is from Connecticut, he's a New England sports guy. So, but I I I don't have a ton of time for pro sports. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:05

I'm married to a New England sports guy too. I get it. It's I feel yes, I get it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:10

Okay. Uh your latest mom fail. Latest. I mean, I'm glad you said latest because I feel like it's every day, right? Like I miss uh I get to school on the wrong day, or I pick you up at four when you're supposed to be picked up at three, um, you know, turning in stuff late because I wasn't paying attention. Um, I I don't know, you know, listen, there's mom fails every day. I feel like sometimes all day. Um, I think the the biggest thing is, you know, to just realize like stuff happens. Um, and like we can't be perfect and and we can't chase perfection all the time. And so just to be real um with our kids uh in terms of, you know, listen, I messed up here um or I failed here. I'm sorry I didn't pick you up on time and you had to sit on the curb a little longer. Um, but I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of mom fails. I mean, we probably could be here for hours on the podcast going through them. We have been.

SPEAKER_02 27:02

Yeah. You know, we uh we do this, we used to do this podcast every week, and every week we would share our mom fail of the week. So exactly. Because you had them. Exactly. Yeah. And I do think there's a really big lesson in being able to apologize to your kids and show them, you know, that that grace takes too and that you're going to apologize and try to do better, and also to have them give you grace and that. I mean, the whole that's that's a learning experience in and of itself. So I think that's for sure. Um, last one for me is just the working mom advice. If you have any other mom friends or mom colleagues, any advice that has stuck with you.

SPEAKER_01 27:34

I think it goes back to what I just said, like we can't be perfect. We can do it all, just not at the same time. Um, and sometimes we don't get it right, even if we try to do it all. So um don't chase perfection. Um, just chase presence and engagement uh with your family, with your coworkers, with your friends. Um, you know, just just try to make those moments when you can. Um, but really not put the pressure on yourself to get it all done all at once. Love that.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Perfectly said. Um, thank you. I'm feeling so inspired. I hope, I hope everyone out there is looking well. Umina, thank you again. Like, I'm so great to do this with you. Um, I can't wait to go back to Durham. Go to Foster's, we'll get our coffee cake.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Yes, and bring Jamie with you. Yeah. I don't care what the airport name is. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_00 28:27

Come to Durham. Thank you again, Nina. Yep, go do it.